Vinyl is art...

[fils_here]

quite an intresting topic/read this by mr. c
http://www.endclub.com/endblog/music

[detfella]

yeah i love to watch a dj interact with his record box ...

[RDR]

But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer system.

:lol:

The needle on a turntable picks up the sound of the room, which feeds back when the needle touches the playing surface of the vinyl - and when played on a big system gives the music another warmth again.

Depends on the room then doesnt it.

The sound of the system, the sound of the monitors, and even the sound of the crowd come through the needle; it’s these sounds regenerating on themselves that give this extra warmth to you, the end user, who’s experiencing the sound on the dancefloor

Added harmonics from standing waves... or reduced harmonics. Why not just have a microphone set up?....

Plus the distributors going under because DJs who really should be supporting these artists, labels et al are simply too lazy to carry vinyl!

Or they have BACK PROBLEMS, or they cant afford the cost of buying a vinyl, money which the majority of which didnt go back to the person who bloody made it. that Mr C seems so fond of.

Yes Mr C Vinyl is so much warmer, no quiblle there. But thats all its got isnt it.

[TechMouse]

Read this elsewhere. Absolutely riddled with basic inaccuracies.

The digital information is compressed, which in turn compresses the sound, which not only starts to make all kick drums and bass tones sound a little similar, but also the width of the high end becomes squashed making the music less dynamic.

Over-compression is an artefact of bad mastering, not bad media.

Not only has the sound of the tune been all-but ruined by converting it into an MP3 file, but there is also compression in the system within these digital computer DJ formats that compresses the sound even further.

What does that even mean?

What is this "compression in the system"?

Don't most people run limiters on their systems anyway?

The physical limitations of vinyl as a medium are much greater than anything digital. CDs have an infinitely low frequency response and their upper limit according to Nyquist is 22.05kHz - way above the limits of human hearing.

With vinyl, anything below 40Hz and you risk cutting an unplayable record - plus there's the whole RIAA curve thing.

But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer system.

Errrr, what?

CDs are just PCM WAV at 16-but 44.1kHz. End of discussion.

If he wants to have a discussion about the relative qualities of the DA converters on high end soundcards vs those on CDJs then bring in on. (But he's going to lose).

So why not use CDs? The music was recorded digitally using digital software, it’s how it sounded in the studio. Correct, but there is still room for improvement, which is why when you cut to vinyl from a 24 bit WAV or from a DAT it always improves in sound.

Oh, it improves in sound does it?

How is that so, Mr C? How can the process of recording something on a physical medium add quality, do enlighten....

Just the process of cutting the record onto a slate or a copper plate adds a warmth and richness to the music that sounds better than the original digital recording. Any record label will tell you that they’re impressed with the improved ‘feel’ of the music after it’s been well cut for vinyl.

Bzzzt, wrong.

Replace "warmth and richness" with "harmonic distortion" and you're being less disingenuous. That's all this is: You cut to a record and you introduce distortion into the process.

Now, you may like that sound and judge it to be "better", but that's just your (aging DJ) ears telling you they prefer the soft edge of analogue clipping to pure digital. And fair enough, but don't try to bullshit anyone that it's an improvement in quality, because that's bollocks.

The needle on a turntable picks up the sound of the room, which feeds back when the needle touches the playing surface of the vinyl - and when played on a big system gives the music another warmth again. The sound of the system, the sound of the monitors, and even the sound of the crowd come through the needle; it’s these sounds regenerating on themselves that give this extra warmth to you, the end user, who’s experiencing the sound on the dancefloor. The sound of the crowd comes back out of the speakers so the crowd subliminally hear themselves played back in real time. This is a spiritual thing, a body thing, a soul thing, which is lost in digital DJ sets.

Well, I've seen professional audio engineers spend hours trying to eradicate feedback from club soundsystems, so I had been led to believe it's generally a no-no.

Once again, he's conflating "warmth" and "distortion".

And I'm highly dubious of this stuff about subliminally hearing yourself through the soundsystem.

All in all, D- for effort, pretty poor show Mr. C.

I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I know it's stupid but I just prefer vinyl, OK?"

That's my take on the subject. I know digital is a better medium, and I even use it from time to time (though we rarely have it set up in the club) but generally I just love spinning Techno on vinyl for my own personal reasons. (That said, I do Electronica sets on digital - I think they suit the medium more). I know it's a more limited format, I know it has more issues, and I don't care. If I ever go digital it will be to do live PAs.

I just think it's dishonest to throw invalid arguments at digital to justify your own foibles.

[...Dave...]

i was just about to rip his statements to bits too but no point now:lol:

total utter bollocks

[fils_here]

quite an intresting topic/read this by mr. c
http://www.endclub.com/endblog/music

edit... quite an entertaining read this :lol: :hissyfit: :lol:

[MARK ANXIOUS]

>But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if >you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer >system.

Hello?????

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Interesting read and fair play to him for what he believes. But yeah, unfortunately this article has it's fair share of inaccuracies. I thought the bit about the crowd coming through the needle was quite good, i'd never really thought of this, but if this really matters to you, why don't you put the channel up on a deck and just leave it on, playing nothing???

Totally agree with a DJ playing CD's looking shite, but then, if that's a problem, why not entertain ppl instead of mixing with your face down at the decks???

Also, if we really want to start drawing comparisons about sound quality, what about fluff on the needle (which, when you play vinyl tends to happen for at least 1/3 of your set). And what about records skipping or jumping because of badly set up stages and/or dj booths?

Vinyl DEFINITELY sounds better I think but ONLY when you're at home, with a perfectly cleaned record, good quality deck set-up and no outside stimuli messin up the equation. And in this club game, the amount of things you personally can't control as a dj is unreal. That's why nearly 75% of the time, I have to reach for the CD bag. Like I say, sure it looks crap, but just like Mr C, ALL i care about is the music quality. If you have to raise your hands a few extra times to compensate for lack of hand movement on a set of 1210's then so be it.

You know, I will say this. When I play CD's, I record about 80% of tracks I play off vinyl simply because the job the engineer does at the cutting plant is ABSOFEKINLUTELY essential in the equation of making music. The sooner people realise this and stop fretting over format, the better. To be fair, you CAN ever-so-slightly tell a difference with playing a recorded CD on a CDJ1000 to that of playing the same record on a 1210 (the way the pitch control works is ever-so-slightly noticable imho), but it's nothing to loose sleep over and if you're really that arsed about the sound of the pitch control, well the record the vinly with the pitch control on the 1210 at sort of around about how you want it for club play.

Wow, what was supposed to be a 1 sentence answer has just turned into a god damn essay hahahaha :hissyfit: :lol:

[dirty_bass]

All this stuff about formats, when the real concern should be the quality, standard, and originality of the music.

[Barely Human]

Im still waiting for the Betamax turntable to come out. Once we have that, the format wars will be over.

[Barely Human]

Oh. and Mr.C is tosser.

[eyeswithoutaface]

needed that hilarious read after a long day in work

god bless Mr C

and all who sail in him

[rhythmtech]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

[fils_here]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

did he have any salmon?

[mattboyslim]

did he have any salmon?

sounds like he'd had a bit too much. And a bit of vera. Larvely

[clubsynthetic]

All this stuff about formats, when the real concern should be the quality, standard, and originality of the music.

was thinking that too.

I luv buying records, at the same time i hate it!

I just don't see why people are so hung up on small things with vinyl when the more when the music is actually on it to listen to. I hate carrying records across town - why would you want to?

And if its playing the music that bothers you (delivery to the audience) then there is no problem either 'cos you got it on serrato or traktor scratch! (which is what i'm starting to invest in now)

Keep the digital HANDS ON!

[mattboyslim]

people are hung up on vinyl because for many its an addiction. Black crack addiction as I like to call it.
I love using it, and to be fair, all those records already made are out there and aren't going to disappear, so maybe the digital revolution will help people get back into crate digging, which can be a very constructive thing for a scene as it educates people about music they may not have heard, and thus inspires creativity.

With so much vinyl already out there, i'm not gonna cry that the latest minimal record isn't available in a physical format

[clubsynthetic]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?

[massplanck]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?

You do without it?

What happens when your hardrive blows and you dont have it backed up?

[DannyBlack]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

couldnt get what up? his record bags? he explains it in the article.

[mattboyslim]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?

buy the mp3?