Should music be given away free?

[tocsin]

Additionally, since I missed my edit time, I don't view the free culture as something that hasn't been paid for. When I got into it, I paid for my contributions because I believed in it, and believed it would continue to grow. It wasn't free. It was, and still is, a gift from all of us which we don't even expect a "thank you" for. That's not the point. It's about enabling and empowering people.

Additionally, nobody has any excuse to let knowledge slip away just because they can't personally use it anymore. This forum is a great example of it. We have a tech forum here where everyone can share their knowledge. I'm notgoing to pretend I write as much music as I sued to, but that's a result of choice since I have more fun VJing now than anything else. On forums, if I happen to read a question from someone where I have personal know how, I provide an answer. The new blood will take it further. That is all that matters. My place in it is as relevant as that, as is all of our's, which is a good thing. Is it about us personally, or is it about something bigger than the self?

[RDR]

perhaps they have a kid, or get married or whatever. and whether young people like it or not, when you get older, you tend to need more security, and you are forced to become a part of the machine that is human nature - those carefree days of living in squats/student accomadation smoking weed really do become a thing of the past.

I understand that, but i dont happen to agree, I got married and had kids and that is what gave the stability to crack on with my music. Sure relationships are difficult and kids take up your time, but it can work.

right now, these guys are having to either perform, or leave the music. this is such a travesty for the music and it will mean that all that knowledge, talent, years of manual reading, purely dedicated studio expertese will be lost forever.

+1, but then thats music isnt it? Change or die?

the other reason is that i've come to realise i actually don't like this throw away culture that's evolved out of the internet

+1 on that, see: my comment on FREE and its meaning.

jesus i sound like an old man now :lol:

Yes, yes you do... welcome to my world :lol:

[acidsaturation]

+ lots @ tocsin again.

I think a couple of issues here are that for some "Free" is not throwaway. The problem however is that many younger people do equate free with throwaway, and don't see the value in things that go outside a monetary system. Does that mean that those who'd like to work with that shouldn't? I think no, shame as it is that it gets abused.

The other thing is that there is a fair polarisation between those whose "job" is music and those for whom it isn't. Which is understandable. But as I said before I think there are worse culprits than people who give their own tunes away. And it seems to be a little bit of an "appeal to the goodhearted" - in the sense that the people sharing files they shouldn't aren't gonna listen, so lets see if the people who are giving legit stuff for free will....

Yeh, you need to make a living, but things do change. Also as tocsin said, there is NO reason for the experience to fade.

As I've said, I'd love it if I can make a few bob against the huge amount of kit I've paid for, but it won't stop me if I don't, and won't stop me giving stuff away. Maybe one day I'll have the time/inclination to promote myself more. But while I'm mainly doing stuff for fun, I don't want it stagnating on a hard drive.

I'm repeating myself here, I know.

But I really can't see how it's such a moral issue. I sympathise if people do think it might be costing them money. But I don't think we know for sure that it's the actual cause.

[Si the Sigh]

Firstly, I buy vinyl, supporting labels and artists.

I also download LOADS of free tracks from various netlabels, always looking to discover something new and fresh, and discover new artists. Isn't that what techno is all about?

Producers / DJ's moaning about losing money, etc. GET A JOB.

I know plenty of people who make quality music, run labels, hold down a 9 to 5 job, DJ and promote events. They have no problem with free tracks / netlabels, etc.

I think the next time I play out I'm going to craft a set from 100% free music I've discovered online...

[Aratron]

Producers / DJ's moaning about losing money, etc. GET A JOB.

i'm not sure i agree with that sentiment.
some people may have one occupation and produce music as a hobby/past-time, extra cash they may or may not need.
some people are born to be artists.
It's well known that most artists throughout history have always had to struggle or be dependent on wealthy patrons to be make a living.

[Si the Sigh]

If thats the case, quit moaning, move with the times and accept that this is the way things are going innit?

Otherwise, realise things are different and adapt to survive. It's not difficult.

I think it's great that new artists who don't want to risk pressing up records, or even selling MP3's through download stores, have decided to give their stuff away so the world can hear it. If it helps that person get a break in life, a record release, remixing dutys or DJ / live sets that make them some money then it's all good.

Seems the only people who have problem with people giving tracks away (bar a few, ie; Inigo Kennedy et al) are the established old skool producers.

[Si the Sigh]

And if these said producers are DJ'ing, or playing out at events, doing gigs and making good money doing so, their moaning hacks me off even more. It's possible for producers who play out to earn in a weekened what I earn in a month at work, yet still they moan. But thats another thread hey...

[koma]

and another thing: many producers are using cracked software and VSTs, riping other people music, using loops from sample cds etc .. to be honest, I dont think they deserve to make a living with that kind of "work"

not all music is art anyway...

[JamieBall]

I don't have a problem giving tracks away, it's fine up to a point as long as the individual understands that's just what they're doing.

The main thing I have a problem with this free 'scene' is the sheer amount of SHITE coming out.

People say net labels are great for people not wanting to risk losing money etc on pressings, well - PRESS SOMETHING THAT SELLS. It don't have to be techno, ya know ?

What pisses me off is that there's some frankly amazing music out there for free (for example inigos' stuff) which is HEAVILY diluted by a veritable ocean of low/no quality dross. I just can't be arsed picking through a lot of this and tend to "stick to what I know" which is a terrible thing to say but at the end of the day, I feel, true. How can we expect new fans to come to the scene when it's just the same old shite as years back only worse ? If I hear one more "TODAY, MATTHEW, I'M GOING TO BE GLENN WILSON" style track....

Fair enough people having it as a hobby or whatever, but keep it as that. You don't see Nadal vs some rubbish kid from a junior tennis club at wimbledon now do ya ? The thing I see as the problem is that, as I've said so many times before, LOADS of people making techno/dance music are NOT MUSICIANS yet they're quite happy to pollute the scene with non-music and derivative crap.

It was the same when lots of people jumped on the 'techno' bandwagon a few years back.... Can't get a label to release your music ? Every door slamming in your face ? Why not release it YOURSELF ! The main reason there's so many techno labels over the years is not cause it's popular, it's cause they're labels mostly full of tracks that have been KB'd from elsewhere.

Now that there's no actual expense in the equation it just opens the floodgates even more imo. I'd be totally happy if everyone released their music for free

A) if they were happy to do so

and (more importantly)

B) If it was REALLY ****ING GOOD

then we could all just move on.

I do think certain people on here are being particularly ignorant with regards to this debate, though. Some people CANNOT do a 9 to 5 and have the headspace for music, if you can more props to ya but don't presume everyone is in the same boat. Surely we're all intelligent enough to realise that broad generalisations don't really 'cut it' on an individual level, no ? I guess it might work if you're coming home from work and painting by numbers, aye, but I do feel there's a certain headspace required for the truly artistic aspect of the brain to function.

Some people CAN work and make tunes, others have to devote all their time to it. Everyone's different, ya know ? (unless you're making techno nowadays, eh ?)

I'll get my coat.

Again.

[Si the Sigh]

and another thing: many producers are using cracked software and VSTs, riping other people music, using loops from sample cds etc .. to be honest, I dont think they deserve to make a living with that kind of "work"

not all music is art anyway...

Ah man, don't even get me started on that shit.

People moaning about people uploading their tracks to Soulseek, etc, filesharing, causing them to lose money, when they are using cracked copies of programs and VST's to produce and quite happily downloading pirate copies of films, etc.

But hey, thats ok they say, those movie guys make millions...blaa blaa.

IT'S NO DIFFERENT.

Anyway, gone a bit off topic here...

[JamieBall]

and another thing: many producers are using cracked software and VSTs, riping other people music, using loops from sample cds etc .. to be honest, I dont think they deserve to make a living with that kind of "work"

not all music is art anyway...

LOL - so, musicians are meant to use the money (which they don't make) from releases (which they can't sell) to buy plugins ?

Oh, the amount of times I've put a 12" back on the shelf knowing that it's been made on cracked software. I tell ya, if I had a fiver for each time that'd happened (I'd have **** all.....)

If you actually open the default MS Windows sounds with a text editor you can scroll around and eventually find an embedded watermark that shows they've been created using a cracked copy of soundforge.

One wonders who actually DOES pay for such programs ?

Also, not that I 'rip off' anyone but to pose a favourite question of mine on this topic - "would you not consider collage a valid form of art?"

[JamieBall]

But hey, thats ok they say, those movie guys make millions...blaa blaa.

IT'S NO DIFFERENT.

Indeed, but they do make exponentially more than say, your average bread-line techno producer ;-)

You don't hear eminem moaning much about illegal downloads. Or maybe you would, but the walls of his 17 castles are too thick I guess.

The MAIN ISSUE here is techno is VERY underground music, so to lose a few sales can kill a label or artist (not literally, of course) as opposed to being on Warner brothers and only selling 250,000 compared to 500,000.

It'd still be viewed as a failure, it's just it wouldn't be the end of the world (or the end of food for the artist)

[Si the Sigh]

@ JamieBall

About picking through shit free tracks / netlabels, what's so different about picking through the shit that HAS been pressed up? Surely there's no difference?

And whats shit to you is gold to others. Different people different tastes. There's been some netlabel releases that I've downloaded that have been so good I would have paid for them if they were on release via legal, paid for download or on plastic.

[JamieBall]

@ JamieBall

About picking through shit free tracks / netlabels, what's so different about picking through the shit that HAS been pressed up? Surely there's no difference?

And whats shit to you is gold to others. Different people different tastes. There's been some netlabel releases that I've downloaded that have been so good I would have paid for them if they were on release via legal, paid for download or on plastic.

There is no difference really, I grew very disheartened with that a few years back too ;-) Well, the main difference I guess is that now there's MORE OF IT...

And I'd argue the shit/gold thing (to an extent). Basically there's good music and bad music, imo. Unless people are willfully into esoteric music to be different or whatever, most people can appreciate what is good and bad. Even if I don't like something that people think is good, if it IS good I can appreciate why people like it - even tho it's not my particular cuppa.

And, as I've said, I also have heard some amazing net label stuff which I would have paid for - sure. However, I've also heard stuff that I'm pretty sure I'd have paid NOT to hear LOL

Dunno, bit of a circular argument/discussion this one (like most of the discussions on here or forums in general, do we actually WANT a resolution?)

[koma]

bottom line is, if you choose to do underground music, dont moan later how theres no money in it. underground is and always will be smaller market, smaller amount of people attending events. lot of artists want to remain faceless and not expose themselves much... which is fine. just dont moan about the money.

[clubsynthetic]

Should music be given away free?

What's your thoughts on this?

More and more labels seem to be giving away free tracks, or just going completely free.

I'm all in favour of promotion which can involve free things or giveaways but there is a limit on this.

Just want to see what the general feeling is on here.

In this day and age people do have the right to ask for pay for there music, but, shouldn't - for there best interests.. (not busting a blood vessle)

One's music will ALWAYS be able to be pirated so thats a lost battle. I think that an artists money is the perfomance they can give on the day (either live or DJing). If there music is good, it speaks for itself, thats the way techno works anyway doesn't it? Its harder to copy someone when they have thier live set or almighty skills on whatever so my conclusion is..

..the money's in the performance. The music is the advertisment (and it is also the music)

[Si the Sigh]

bottom line is, if you choose to do underground music, dont moan later how theres no money in it.

Thats the bottom line IMO.

Anyway, like Jamie said, this is just going to go round and round in circles as everyone has their opinions on it, so this is the last I'm saying on this.

[davethedrummer]

me too
i've had enough of this conversation it'll go on for ever
i have my opinion and i'm sticking to it
i enjoy what i do and thats that , i make music, it's my job and i consider myself lucky to do a job that i get so much enjoyment from
it does get me down sometimes and when things get cancelled or i get ripped off or whatever.
and i can get pretty cynical about the money in times like that because i work hard at what i do.

but at the end of the day i love it , the music that is
i could do without the late nights the long drives and all that stuff
but i do get to sit in the studio and write music as a result so it's all good really

[RDR]

this has some resonance here.

From Digital Music News

Resnikoff's Parting Shot: Where's My Long Tail Playbook?

Amidst the dizzying chaos that is the music industry today, a fairytale exists. Somewhere, over the rainbow, a place exists for Long Tail artists everywhere to thrive financially, creatively, and with total independence.

But the success ratios for developing artists will continue to remain slim, at least over the short- and mid-term horizons. And breakout successes, however rare, will be difficult to capture and duplicate. In short, there is no Long Tail playbook for success, and there may never be one.

Sure, independent and unsigned artists now have unprecedented mechanisms for connecting and cultivating niche audiences. And loyal fans are a powerful bunch, especially when they start opening their wallets, attending shows, and spreading the word.

And, a constellation of easy-to-use, inexpensive services now exist. TuneCore can put your song onto iTunes overnight. And iLike can spread your profile across multiple networks just as quickly. CD Baby can sell your CD, and Zazzle can help you merchandise. Step the game up a little, and effective list management and smart targeting come into play. And P2P applications can quickly lubricate the word-of-mouth process.

But those steps set the stage for a possible breakout, they don't create one. And even if a band starts resonating with a targeted audience, cultivating a loyal following takes repetition, continued word-of-mouth, and lots of time. Just like before.

And, let's face it, most lack the creative capital to truly rally a meaningful following. Of course, every artist makes the best music in the world, just like every entrepreneur has the most revolutionary business model imaginable. And, totally unrealistic self-assessments are often required to overcome the endless naysaying that the world offers.

But in reality, very few have the winning musical charisma and creativity required to attract serious, devoted groups of fans. And, for that matter, most startups end up failing. Only a tiny sliver of new artists actually start a flame, and even fewer can keep it burning over time.

There are just too many bands, too many options for potential fans, and way too many distractions in the current, fragmented media landscape. And, a large percentage of new music is uninteresting, unoriginal, or uninspiring.

Then again, everyone has a different definition of success. And some artists are happy to be scraping by. Selling a few iTunes downloads here, the odd CD Baby disc there, a t-shirt every Thursday, a marginally-lucrative gig on Friday. And why not? Suddenly, this existence is possible.

But what about a higher level of musical existence? Truly breaking out, and enjoying both financial and critical success? Actually, breakouts are happening, but the path towards success for Long Tail artists remains chaotic, and mostly hit-or-miss. And that means that artists must remain scrappy, unbreakable, and committed to scoring the elusive big break - just like before.

Take the case study of Saul Williams. The hard-to-classify urban poet actually scored a nice purse on his recent album, but few saw it coming. And the story was so complicated and unpredictable that it remains almost impossible to duplicate.

Williams, with the assistance of Trent Reznor, started offering his album using the emerging name-your-price sales model. And after a few months, the results were mildly successful. Williams already had some name recognition, and perhaps a niche audience, though most were paying nothing for the album. And probably moving on to something else after that.

Then, something funny happened. An older track, "List of Demands," was featured within an inspirational Nike advertisement. The online experiment quickly careened past revenues of $300,000, and Williams embarked on a string of sold-out club dates. In his words, the experiment had a "marvelous result," thanks to a mix of unexpected factors.

In some ways, a fairytale ending. But a formula? Do enough homework, and you can figure out how to create a name-your-price proposition online. But a Nike ad? Artists like Junkie XL have done it, and even Dockers dusted off the vinyl on Marlena Shaw's "California Soul," just one of several reuses.

But Williams had other advantages, including a leading role in the 1998 film, Slam, a major label stint, and several high-profile touring opportunities. Perhaps not the most widely-recognized of artists, but Williams is hardly struggling at the extremes of the tail.

And those that are face a vexing, unpredictable and improbable path towards success. In contrast, head-of-the-tail artists like Radiohead and Trent Reznor are figuring and defining best practices, and broadcasting the best ways to excite existing crowds and profit in the process.

But for those toiling in obscurity, a playbook remains illusory - and success a difficult and rare result. That said, few can argue against some key ingredients, including proper distribution and promotion, a dogged determination to succeed, and truly amazing content. Some things never change, and probably never will.

Paul Resnikoff, Publisher.

[MorePunkThanFunk]

i think this is an argument that is going to go round and round as everyone has such vastly different opinions on this. its good to get everyones opinion on this though, been interesting.