Should music be given away free?

[Si the Sigh]

God bless and goodnight!

Quick pint anyone?

[tocsin]

I do think certain people on here are being particularly ignorant with regards to this debate, though. Some people CANNOT do a 9 to 5 and have the headspace for music, if you can more props to ya but don't presume everyone is in the same boat.

That's not my problem. The fact is, when I want to, I can and do. I drive 600 miles a week for work. I'm going to be out until at least 3am tonight doing a VJ set, and will be at work which is an hour drive from my place by 9am. When I'm inclined to write music in my spare time, I do. You don't don't hear me bitching about that, or blaming someone else for why I have a 9-5. I'm fine with what I do and know I can pull it off when I want to. Also, I don't care if people choose to do music or art as their fulltime job. I'm all in support of it. Just don't act like the fact that while I'm also doing art, but giving it away for free, is hurting you. It's bullshit and, even if true, I'm not about to care. Any respect from me is going to end the instant someone has the odacity to make me a scapegoat for what they perceive as their own failures. Fact is, I really am not part of any music industry. There's not a soul here running a label who can say I've sent them a demo. So, to somehow pretend it's people like myself that is cutting into their action is simply silly. We're on entirely different ships in the same ocean and I'm not fishing in it.

[detfella]

and another thing: many producers are using cracked software and VSTs, riping other people music, using loops from sample cds etc .. to be honest, I dont think they deserve to make a living with that kind of "work"

so true

[detfella]

should music be given away free? imho NO, NO and NO again.

and the main reason why i say this is primarily because of the artists. i have seen SOOOOOO many talented older people who are just artists (not dj's) leave this game recently because of the fact that they finally come to realise that you do, actually need money to have a decent standard of living.

so is it different for warez or ebooks? you asked for links to torrent sites to download books a couple of months back. or maybe those people don't need the money like musicians?

[detfella]

not what you said thats for sure

ooooooooooooooooooook....

[JamieBall]

That's not my problem. The fact is, when I want to, I can and do. I drive 600 miles a week for work. I'm going to be out until at least 3am tonight doing a VJ set, and will be at work which is an hour drive from my place by 9am. When I'm inclined to write music in my spare time, I do. You don't don't hear me bitching about that, or blaming someone else for why I have a 9-5. I'm fine with what I do and know I can pull it off when I want to. Also, I don't care if people choose to do music or art as their fulltime job. I'm all in support of it. Just don't act like the fact that while I'm also doing art, but giving it away for free, is hurting you. It's bullshit and, even if true, I'm not about to care. Any respect from me is going to end the instant someone has the odacity to make me a scapegoat for what they perceive as their own failures. Fact is, I really am not part of any music industry. There's not a soul here running a label who can say I've sent them a demo. So, to somehow pretend it's people like myself that is cutting into their action is simply silly. We're on entirely different ships in the same ocean and I'm not fishing in it.

LOL - u misunderstand me I think, sir (as so many do...)

Wasn't making or trying to make you a 'scapegoat' - that would be >RETARDATION<

I appreciate fully that you can do what you do on your own time, I also wasn't making the example of full time musicians about myself - don't get me wrong. I just know a lot of people as mark has said earlier who have simply stopped producing now there's no income in it. Also some people can't 'work' and 'do music' it's as simple as that. Fact.

Fair play, maybe people shouldn't be looking to music for a 'living' in the first place but when you DO then subsequently go from making money (which is not my concern, rest assured) to not in the blink of an eye I can appreciate they may well find this annoying - surely you can see this too, no?

It's not anyone in particulars FAULT of course*, but you can't deny that the playing field has changed dramatically for music (esp underground stuff) in the last few years. I think it's a great thing in a lot of ways but some people don't, simple as that.

I like to try and see things from everyones point of view, ya know...

*actually it is the fault of AL GORE. He "invented" the internet, I believe

[tocsin]

LOL - u misunderstand me I think, sir (as so many do...)

Wasn't making or trying to make you a 'scapegoat' - that would be >RETARDATION<

I threw a couple general "you" instances in there. A poor writing habit of mine that comes out online every so often and causes confusion. I didn't think you were scapegoating me at all. I apologise for that.

Fair play, maybe people shouldn't be looking to music for a 'living' in the first place but when you DO then subsequently go from making money (which is not my concern, rest assured) to not in the blink of an eye I can appreciate they may well find this annoying - surely you can see this too, no?

No, I don't really see it when I become blamed for it. It's just a repeat trend. The first time I ever remember hearing it was probably around 1995 or 1996 where larger name DJs were whining about "new" DJs, or DJs who charged less or played for free, as cutting in on their bookings. It ignored the very real fact that none of these people playing for free or cheap were ever leaving their home cities at the time and were never considered for any of the slots that these guys were. But, they stopped getting bookings so, rather than admitting that maybe, in some cases, their fees were merely out of reach for the promoters, they instead blamed a bunch of unknown new kids playing for free or cheap in venues they'd never bother with. It's the same dumb argument were seeing made right here involving producers now. "Free" music can simply never compete, since it doesn't cost anything. If the producers who aren't seeing the same income anymore think they are losing sales because other artists write music on their own for free, they're just mistaken. Though, again, it's easier to blame someone else than to simply admit that one may not be creating something that is all that appealing anymore in the same way it was before. If it was still good, the fact that so much other stuff is out there for free would enable people to still buy the music from those who are currently insecure.

It's not anyone in particulars FAULT of course*, but you can't deny that the playing field has changed dramatically for music (esp underground stuff) in the last few years. I think it's a great thing in a lot of ways but some people don't, simple as that.

I like to try and see things from everyones point of view, ya know...

The field has changed, and it's all for the better, since more people are able to create and share. That's a beautiful thing. That's what technology is supposed to enable. I see the opposite view, see why it's essentially wrong, and don't care for it as it's passive aggressive nonsense. It's a "you damn kids" argument. ;)

[Smear]

Another question worth asking, i dunno if this happens at parties that are a lot bigger, but it obviously doesn't at smaller parties.....if you play a record in a club, should the DJ pay royalties to the artist, just like a band who does a cover would, or a pub with a jukebox?

[p_brane]

very interesting reading all the comments on this topic

IMO music is never free. It costs for software, hardware and it costs for the time put into it most of all.

however, i think cost free music at a consumer level can be a really good thing. There are a few labels out there putting great music out at no cost to the consumer and thats sweet, you will usually find that many artists on these labels are also signed to various other labels, be it digital or vinyl that charge.Personally i see it as a gift from the producers to the scene, because like i said it didnt cost nothing.

i can see where the full time producer/DJ's are coming from but in all honesty i dont get it.

the scene has changed a lot since i got into it. Its now more accessible than ever and surely thats a good thing, IMO this in part is due to the accessibility of forums like this that like minded people can get together and promote their 'sound' to the scene,if its free then count it as a gift, it aint gonna make people buy less records from the established artists. there is a progression in the air , you just got to embrace it, gone are the days of the super star DJ, the elite few who can afford equipment, software, studio costs. its as it should be; an open ended environment in which people of all financial situations can express themselves, and with a bit of hard work get good enough to one day make a bit of money from it, but the scene dont owe you a living, you have to earn that.

just my tuppence worth:)

[TechMouse]

Another question worth asking, i dunno if this happens at parties that are a lot bigger, but it obviously doesn't at smaller parties.....if you play a record in a club, should the DJ pay royalties to the artist, just like a band who does a cover would, or a pub with a jukebox?

Technically you should submit tracklists to the venue, who should then submit them to PRS. Any producers who are PRS registered will receive a percentage of the money in the PRS pot.

As it stands, the big name pop acts get the majority of the money because of radio plays and big club plays, but if all the little guys registered and submitted tracklists we'd claw some of it back.

It's especially worth it if you ever get stuff played on Radio (e.g. I had a track played on Annie Nightingale's show a couple of years back, and if I had been PRS registered it might have meant a little bit of cash - maybe enough for a pint or something).

[clubsynthetic]

I totally agree with the pirated software whilst making money on the music from it/them is wrong and cheeky.

As said before if its your choon do what you want with it.

We should try and ban MP3's and the internet.

[RDR]

Technically you should submit tracklists to the venue, who should then submit them to PRS. Any producers who are PRS registered will receive a percentage of the money in the PRS pot.

As it stands, the big name pop acts get the majority of the money because of radio plays and big club plays, but if all the little guys registered and submitted tracklists we'd claw some of it back.

It's especially worth it if you ever get stuff played on Radio (e.g. I had a track played on Annie Nightingale's show a couple of years back, and if I had been PRS registered it might have meant a little bit of cash - maybe enough for a pint or something).

the PRS doesnt require tracklists from clubs, it pointless, they just pay a blanket fee which they then apportion out on a average basis according to whatever formula they are currently using.

also did you have a track played on radio?

[Athar]

"Should music be given away free?"

Nowdays there is nothing givin for free on the western world,

Music its artist intellectual property,
its not just a food or blankets we sending and givin for free in the central africa
music should be protected and born some money for survive artists and scene
its logical in my opinion

[crime]

I spent up until a year ago, 5 years living totally from music ( with a few odd jobs on the side here and there), and in the last year I got to the point where I was really sick of the music side of my life becoming like a chore. The stress caused by the lack of money was totally killing my inspiration, and when I look back, some music I made, although still quite underground, was sometimes being directed by commercial pressures, something I'm not entirely comfortable with.

That last point in particular, I felt, was really not a good one, I came to the conclusion that life would be much more stress free if I actually started working full time, and my music would be purely written from the heart, when I wanted to do it and not because I was gonna earn 500 euro for doing a "banging" e.p. which I didn't really want to do, but had to because it was the only way to pay the rent..

Since working reguarly, I make a lot less music, but what I do make, I'm much more happy with, and it's written to please me, not some label owner...

Because of the pinch in vinyl sales, vinyl labels are much less open to taking music which doesn't fit in with any one sound or genre, and it's also very easy to get typecast in the techno scene, i.e. you make some hard techno records and everybody thinks that's all you make or are interested in.. so when you do try and do something different, the people who like the hard stuff hate it because it's not hard techno, and people who might like it ignore it because they think "oh, he just makes hard techno"...

If you're not relying on money from music you ultimately have much more freedom to do what you want to do, and you are in a much better headstate when it comes to playing gigs.. I re-evaluated everything, and came to the conclusion that I needed to get back into it for the original reason why I made electronic music i.e. because of love for the music..

it's a sad fact that the music market has become saturated, but if you're gonna blame people giving their stuff away for free, why not blame the countless amount of people out there, that used to be bedroom djs who have stopped buying records to instead concentrate on their own productions and live sets...

But blaming others solves nothing, the important thing I think is to remember why you got into this in the first place, to have a career in it, or for the love of music..

I know a fair few so-called "big names" who have their fingers in other pies, such as sound design, studio management, sound engineering, audio visual work etc, and others who are in a similar boat to me, driving vans, diggers, working in shops, warehouses, offices etc, the few I do know that are successfull purely from music are constantly finding new ways to make money from different angles in music, you're kidding yourself if you think seriously in this day and age that you can live just from writing a few techno tunes, and spinning tunes in a few clubs now and then... the only people doing this are the "scene leaders", who have been there since the rave scene, and I suspect that these people have their fingers in many pies...

so I think giving away music for free has become a neccesity for some who wish to do something different.. I gave my album away for free last year, after months of slogging around the labels trying to sell it.. given the good feedback I got after giving it away for free, I don't think it was a bad album at all, the problem I had was that it didn't fit in with anyone's label agenda, and given the commercial pressures these days, most labels want sure fire hits...

in the late nineties, we used to say "everyone wants to be a DJ", nowdays that has morphed into "everybody wants to be a Producer/Live act/net label owner", like it or hate it, you have to live with it, I'm quite glad myself that it made me re-evaluate everything, as I'm enjoying it all much more, ok, my output has slowed somewhat, but I hope that the rise in quality makes up for that..

With so much 2nd rate crap out there, it's important to push the boundaries, and only release music that is really saying something, a luxury that can only be afforded if you are sticking rich, don't mind being really poor or have a full time job...

[RDR]

Because of the pinch in vinyl sales, vinyl labels are much less open to taking music which doesn't fit in with any one sound or genre

Is that not more to do with the retaillers, and by association the labels?

why not blame the countless amount of people out there, that used to be bedroom djs who have stopped buying records to instead concentrate on their own productions and live sets...

I thought the same for a while now. Teaching DJ in college isnt what it was. Hardly ANY DJs coming through, although funnily e-muff the rock kids are MUCH more interested in it than they were as its more exotic.

you're kidding yourself if you think seriously in this day and age that you can live just from writing a few techno tunes, and spinning tunes in a few clubs now and then... the only people doing this are the "scene leaders", who have been there since the rave scene, and I suspect that these people have their fingers in many pies...

Look at the hardcore scene, those boys have been running stuff there for years and years.

given the commercial pressures these days, most labels want sure fire hits...

Surely most COMMERCIAL labels? I can believe there are not people who dont want to put out stuff. Indies cant have lost their love either?

in the late nineties, we used to say "everyone wants to be a DJ", nowdays that has morphed into "everybody wants to be a Producer/Live act/net label owner", like it or hate it, you have to live with it,

Live with it! Love it! Ride it!

Cheers mark ;)

[crime]

Is that not more to do with the retaillers, and by association the labels?

well both, retailers buy from the distributors who buy from the labels, it's all the same thing.... and all the people involved in every side of that business have an effect and influence on what comes out...

Look at the hardcore scene, those boys have been running stuff there for years and years.

yes, but unless you're an absolute cainer, after 10 years + doing this stuff, maybe you don't want to be playing every weekend to a munted crowd... some do, I don't...

plus piano wailing happy hardcore is hardly at the cutting edge of electronic music, and is probably quite a safe bet compared to techno/electronica

Surely most COMMERCIAL labels? I can believe there are not people who dont want to put out stuff. Indies cant have lost their love either?

the books always have to balance, and it appears to me unless your music is either minimal, schranz or club techno, forget it...

labels, however underground have to pay the rent, simple economics.. anything more left field usually means that it's a small closed circle running a label just to release their own works.. fair enough, I wouldn't expect anyone to put their money where I wouldn't put my own regarding a vinyl release, especially in the current climate..

seriously, you listen to doomsday clock, no label would take that, and even now, trying to just get a 12" released from it, there is no interest.. maybe I'm misguided and it's actually a load of shit, but personally I think it's the best stuff I've ever done.. If all I get is people asking me to do another e.p. like my old Djax ones, I'd rather not bother, that sound just isn't me anymore, but unfortunately that's all anyone expects, I get a lot of praise for that stuff, but it's just too damn raw for me now and I feel that they were quite naive records...
I'm more interested in writing electronica now, more varied deeper stuff, and for reasons mentioned before, I'm having to start from scratch, but this is why I've decided not to care about any kind of popularity, and just to do it because I want to make that kind of music, no expectations other than pleasing myself...

[RDR]

well both, retailers buy from the distributors who buy from the labels, it's all the same thing.... and all the people involved in every side of that business have an effect and influence on what comes out...




yes, but unless you're an absolute cainer, after 10 years + doing this stuff, maybe you don't want to be playing every weekend to a munted crowd... some do, I don't...

plus piano wailing happy hardcore is hardly at the cutting edge of electronic music, and is probably quite a safe bet compared to techno/electronica



the books always have to balance, and it appears to me unless your music is either minimal, schranz or club techno, forget it...

labels, however underground have to pay the rent, simple economics.. anything more left field usually means that it's a small closed circle running a label just to release their own works.. fair enough, I wouldn't expect anyone to put their money where I wouldn't put my own regarding a vinyl release, especially in the current climate..

seriously, you listen to doomsday clock, no label would take that, and even now, trying to just get a 12" released from it, there is no interest.. maybe I'm misguided and it's actually a load of shit, but personally I think it's the best stuff I've ever done.. If all I get is people asking me to do another e.p. like my old Djax ones, I'd rather not bother, that sound just isn't me anymore, but unfortunately that's all anyone expects, I get a lot of praise for that stuff, but it's just too damn raw for me now and I feel that they were quite naive records...
I'm more interested in writing electronica now, more varied deeper stuff, and for reasons mentioned before, I'm having to start from scratch, but this is why I've decided not to care about any kind of popularity, and just to do it because I want to make that kind of music, no expectations other than pleasing myself...

Sure the distros have an axe to grind as well, and yup they sure are related!

The hardcore scene really did well IMO because of the events, they either got lucky, or realised which way the wind was blowing. I'd go for the latter myself. I was just pointing out their longevity than saying you'd want to do as de la does ;)

Digital labels have lower costs and can afford to experiment. For r3tox i wanted to release something on vinyl but its looking more distant and if i do, its gonna have to be commercial to keep my investors happy at the prospect of getting even a small portion of their financing back.

I really am supruised no-one would take doomsday clock, but on the other hand im also not suprised as well, times they are a changing and risk taking is way down the agenda for commercial projects.

Hear what you are saying about electronica, i enjoy programming synths myself and that is almost an end in itself for me. mad sounds and brain candy.

[RDR]

This article informs this discussion.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ly_p2p_survey/

and also this spout of crap from apple.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10...ue_gap_report/

[Kokotorobot]

seriously, you listen to doomsday clock, no label would take that, and even now, trying to just get a 12" released from it, there is no interest.. maybe I'm misguided and it's actually a load of shit, but personally I think it's the best stuff I've ever done..

just listened to the album man, really enjoyed it! good job, and see, i'd probably never came across of it if it wasn't available as a free download. some tracks are definitely 12" material.

you should put these doomsday clock tracks up on last.fm as full free tracks, people will check it out and listen

[TechMouse]

the PRS doesnt require tracklists from clubs, it pointless, they just pay a blanket fee which they then apportion out on a average basis according to whatever formula they are currently using.

AFAIK, the payout is based on a weighting assigned by PRS based on the number of public plays. This includes in clubs. Clubs should submit tracklists. It may seem pointless in individual instances, but if everyone did it it would quickly become more meaningful.

also did you have a track played on radio?

Yes. Years back I did a remix for someone and they played it in a mix on Annie Nightingale's show on Radio 1.

It's a weird thing, hearing your stuff coming out of a radio.